Ontario votes 2025: The things you need to know about (Part 1)

Rupesh Patel (00:06.616) Hey everyone, Rupesh Patel here. Welcome back to Government Policy Unpacked. We're to try something new today. I haven't done this yet, but I always had this vision that during an election time, if you were approached by a candidate, someone comes to your door, they start talking to you about what issues matter to you, and you're engaging with that person and they're saying, hey, you know what? This party is going to do this and this and that. You might nod along, you might not know exactly the kind of questions that you might want to ask. The promises that they're speaking to you about sound pretty cool, but you just don't have that kind of backup information to be able to maybe ask those questions back to that person, challenge, or kind of break it in your head as far as does that even make sense? So I always thought as part of this podcast, whenever there was an election that would come up here in Canada, that maybe I could provide some of that information, some of that critical thinking that you could have in that moment. so that you can make the right decision. And you know what? There's an election that we can talk about and that's the one in Ontario. Doug Ford just recently called an election. My understanding is that there was supposed to be this fixed election date of June, 2026. He called one early, so here we are. The election is gonna happen this coming week. And so I brought with me today, Malamir Logan. And the funny thing is for folks who don't know Malamir is that Malamir and I go way back. We go back to... our public policy days in 2012 where we both studied at Queens and here we are doing a podcast together talking about public policy issues on an election coming forth. So Malamir, welcome to Government Policy Impact. I'm really excited to have you and just to have this conversation of us just being policy nerds together, but doing it in a way that makes sense for the average person who's engaged, but just doesn't have the time in their day to... break down the different issues and I want to make it easy for folks. It's not a political podcast as we've talked about. It's really about understanding the different policies that these parties are throwing at voters and making sense, making it sensible for folks so that they can really understand really what makes, what's possibly a good policy and what maybe may not work. So welcome to Government Policy Impact. Really excited for our conversation. Malumir R. Logan (02:23.849) Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so happy to be here. Rupesh Patel (02:27.406) Great. And for folks, know what? This is going to be, we might go in depth on different topics. I may have to break this down in parts. So, Malamir, we may have to have you back and we may have to do some multiple segments. But hey, this was a bit of a surprise election, I guess, from afar. I live in Alberta. Didn't expect this to happen. mean, Doug Ford seemed to be, at least in the public eye, from... I think out here it's like, you he's fighting for Ontario jobs. You know, we see him showing up really strongly, especially in the face of tariffs. It didn't seem like it was an election that needed to be called, but I don't know if there's any undercurrents. And if you have a sense of like, this was coming and this was pretty obvious. Do you have a sense of like this, whether this was a surprise or not? Malumir R. Logan (03:17.011) think that a lot of, I think that it depends on who you ask. I think that for some of us who are very civically engaged and... have paid a lot of attention to what political decision makers are doing, we were not surprised. For example, I actually had a conversation with a friend back in December. said, I bet you anything, we are going to be heading to the polls provincially in the next few months. I didn't know when exactly, but it really felt like it was coming soon. and there are reasons for that. I think part of it is this kind of track record that Ontario voters seem to have of unwillingness to tolerate the same political party at both the provincial and the federal levels. The reason that... that would then suggest a potential early election like we are facing now is that the provincial government had a majority. at that time, were doing, I think they were doing pretty well in the public eye. They were seen as doing well in the public eye. And a lot of folks, because they're not as engaged, may not have paid attention to other policy issues came up that might have led them to think differently. Malumir R. Logan (04:50.801) And so I think that's why, for those of us who have been paying a lot of attention, we would not have been surprised by an early election because especially as things were changing federally, right, they likely saw an opportunity to try to cinch a few more years and not risk not getting back in next year. So I think for those of us who paid attention, it was very Rupesh Patel (05:17.262) Great. Malumir R. Logan (05:20.805) expected. I think for a lot of other people there was a lot of surprise. There was a lot of surprise and to be frank I've some people that I've spoken to have actually been surprised because I've been trying to encourage you know my friends and loved ones and acquaintances to vote to be really engaged. You know the election offices have been open since January 30th and there were people who reached out said wait there's an election? So yes so a lot of people are surprised. Rupesh Patel (05:42.19) Hmm. Rupesh Patel (05:47.982) Yeah, and I imagine part of the surprise is that there are these fixed election dates, right? And for people to understand our system of governance is that even though there are these fixed election dates, the lieutenant governor has the power to dissolve the legislature, but that's on the advice of usually the premier, right? And so these situations can happen. It sucks. You'd hope that when there's a fixed election date, there's a fixed election date. But these situations can happen. Yeah, very, very interesting that this is going on right now. How are you doing, by the way? I should have asked you that to start. Malumir R. Logan (06:26.601) Thank you. You know, I'm very grateful to be able to sit up today. I'm dealing with a prolonged medical condition. It's been very long and drawn out. I mean, you know, I'm normally a marathon runner and I'm lifting heavy weights and I'm doing yoga and I'm doing all this physical activity. And these days I get to spend most of my time doing the very fun job of lying down with my eyes closed. So, but I'm very grateful to be here. I'm hoping to be able to make it through and I'm I'm excited to be able to chat with you. Rupesh Patel (06:58.474) or we're all very grateful that you can make time for us today. you know, thank you so much, Malamir. Okay, where do we start? I wonder if we should first start at... Actually, I want to ask you the question. When you're, like you said, you've been talking to your friends and family about, hey, let's get engaged in this election. How do you help your friends and family think about, especially if they're undecided, how they should maybe think about voting? Do you ever have that conversation? Because I have some thoughts here too, but I'm curious about your thoughts on that. Malumir R. Logan (07:26.353) I definitely have thoughts. So I think that most people really, as you said earlier, you know, a lot of people may not have that in-depth familiarity with our system of governments, with the Westminster model. And so because of that, and I think because a lot of people don't realize how much politics affects our everyday lives and the decisions that these political decision makers are making, on a regular basis affect our everyday lives. I think that's, these are some of the reasons that a lot of people just, they don't really pay that much attention or they don't know how. And it's understandable, it can be really overwhelming. So I've definitely been having these conversations with people in my life. You know, I think some of the things that people get really confused about is who to vote for. You know, I've had people text me and say, know, political leaders, they're just all the same. And, you know, what I point out is that, okay, regardless of how you feel about leaders, like, let's just set that aside in the parking lot for a minute. Rupesh Patel (08:37.518) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (08:40.829) The fact is that someone will win the election. Someone will win. They will form government. And that government will make decisions that affect our everyday lives because they do. Anytime there's been an outdoor workers strike, for example, we all learn how much government, it's a very tangible example of how government affects our lives, but it affects our lives in so many more ways. And so what I encourage people to do is pay attention to the platforms. The platforms are out there, pay attention to them. Rupesh Patel (09:04.846) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (09:18.793) when you're paying attention to the platforms, think that's another place that people get confused because, you know, platforms usually make they make big promises. And that's that's good. That's their purpose. Their purpose is to say, here's what we believe. Here's what we're going to prioritize. And that's wonderful. Rupesh Patel (09:33.614) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (09:36.841) But I do really wish that people understood a bit more or maybe would practice a little bit more reading between the lines of those and just thinking a bit more about how are those going to be operationalized? If someone makes a promise that they're going to, you know, say, you know, everyone's going to, you know, have a family doctor by whatever, whatever parameter, let's say. OK, great. How specifically do you plan to do that? And that comes back to your earlier point of Rupesh Patel (09:45.294) Hmm. Malumir R. Logan (10:06.855) These are the types of questions that if a door knocker comes, you want to be able to ask because it's a great idea, right? Everyone knows we are struggling for doctors. There is a crisis when it comes to family physicians in this province. And so how are you? How specifically are you going to deliver it? OK, great. You're going to put X amount of money. But what steps are you going to take? Right. Which programs are going to be put into place? How are you going to how are you going to make that happen over what Rupesh Patel (10:11.736) Yeah. Rupesh Patel (10:29.442) Yep. Yep. Malumir R. Logan (10:36.705) period of time. if I would I would encourage people to think how is the promise going to be operationalized? How has how have the people who created that platform previously talked about it or previously created examples of it if they have been in government? Rupesh Patel (10:56.642) Yeah, you know what? I love that. I love that last piece. And maybe I would add to that on the example of like primary care or family doctor. You're right. We all the parties know that this is a struggle. It's a problem that we all need to it's across the country. It's not just Ontario. But I would also even add to that as far as how not only how it's implemented, but also thinking about how is that going to show up for you as a person? Right. So everyone. So all these all these parties are saying, hey, we need to help Ontarians with finding a family doctor. Malumir R. Logan (11:10.237) Mm-hmm. Rupesh Patel (11:26.114) But that might be maybe a team-based setting. might be also different. And so your preference might be like, yeah, you know what? I do want a family doctor, but I don't just want a family doctor. I want to be able to have access to other health care practitioners as well. And so diving into those details can actually really make a difference in the kind of quality of care you're receiving. And so I think that level of detail is also really important. The other thing is I would say, dollars are thrown around in party platforms all the time. To me, that's like for the average person, that's meaningless, right? Unless you're tracking what the relative expenditures have been in the past or whether this is actually net new spending or not. it could just go right by your head. Cause you hear a party, someone, a party official say, yeah, we're spending tens of billions of dollars on this. that's like, that's a huge number, but Is it really or really how are those dollars being used? You're right. I think the devil's in the details. It is tough though for the average voter to kind of take the time or really even care about that level of implementation. So I think it's really, especially if it's a priority area for you, think diving into the details can really make a difference. Malumir R. Logan (12:38.043) Yes, and also thinking about something else that I would encourage people to think about is that it's always In some ways it's easier for parties that are not or have not recently or most recently been in power to assign ideas that they have because as much as the budget is publicly available, Rupesh Patel (13:07.47) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (13:10.047) You only get to see the budget. You don't get to see what actually goes into that. You don't necessarily know how much of that is committed over a multi-year fiscal profile, for example, right? how, so it may, you know, how many, over how many years is a particular dollar value promise being spent over? Is it being spent in one year? Is it being spent in 20 years? Rupesh Patel (13:23.875) Great. Rupesh Patel (13:36.28) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (13:40.039) And something else to consider is that any time that a length of time is included in some kind of platform or policy, it's important to consider what happens in that time period. So if something is promised, say over 10 years, well, that's only as guaranteed as an administration is. what if a, you know, and how quickly are they planning Rupesh Patel (13:54.509) Yes. Malumir R. Logan (14:10.033) on spending that money, right? Is it going to be ramped up? Are they only spending a little bit in the first few years, but the big spend promise doesn't come till later? And now is that administration going to be there? And so these are the types of things, know, exactly said these are the kinds of things that I really encourage people think about. And I know it seems overwhelming and how am I supposed to know that? So these are exactly the types of questions to ask and to just think about critically when looking at platforms. Rupesh Patel (14:19.48) Great. Yeah, that's a point. Rupesh Patel (14:37.26) Yeah. Do you ever find, I find sometimes talking to friends and family when I asked, I might ask the question, if you ask more directly, like, Hey, who are you kind of leaning to or who you're voting for? Sometimes people get stuck of like, they don't even know really what their priority is. Right? Like they hear a lot of like interesting things that parties are throwing. And so sometimes I'll probe into that question of like, Hey, well, what's really, what really matters to you in your day to day life right now? Malumir R. Logan (14:53.213) Hmm. Rupesh Patel (15:03.532) And then you start to unpack and you hear their issues and then you're like, okay, well, maybe that's more of a municipal thing. Maybe that's more of federal thing. And that's also, you talked about this, this is the challenge of people don't understand the different orders of governments, right? I imagine, you know, the tariff threats are on the minds of Ontarians and that obviously extends between mainly the federal and provincial governments, but even unpacking that, like who really has more jurisdiction on this one and others? I mean, it's Malumir R. Logan (15:10.845) Yes. Rupesh Patel (15:31.542) really confusing right now because the premiers are really going out there and taking a strong role in this. it could be even adding more confusion for folks. I find like that's a challenge is just understanding what's the priority for folks. But once you get to like, okay, you know what, actually, I'm struggling because I find that there's too many... Kids in our classrooms, for instance. Okay, so that's interesting. So you're feeling like education's a little, yeah, you know what? Education is a priority. Okay, let's dive into that, right? But just understanding people's priorities, I feel like is a good place to start sometimes. What do you think? Malumir R. Logan (16:08.551) Yeah, I think that. I think it is important for people to think about those priorities. mean, I think that also in thankfully that in this era it is possible to to look up online which order of government is responsible for what now obviously this pertains more to kind of longer term issues like education, which is a provincial that is a provincial responsibility, for example on issues like tariffs and maybe it's even just useful to pause on and chat about this Rupesh Patel (16:32.653) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (16:40.671) topic a little bit right here because there is a little confusion on it and people may be confused because the premiers are out there pushing so hard and perhaps it's useful for people to think about why is that? are the premiers pushing so hard if these tariffs are really more of a federal subject matter? that really comes down to what economy drives each of these provinces, right? And so, know, tariffs will affect different provinces in different ways depending on what their economies are, which is why we can see some of the premiers pushing so hard. But also, they will also affect municipalities, right? And so it's one of those issues and this often happens actually with these, you know, what we might call a new and emerging or a new and emerging issues or hot files. When these new and unestablished types of issues suddenly arise, that it's often common for more orders of government to get involved because of that kind of unestablished nature. Rupesh Patel (17:48.206) Let's maybe let's jump into tariffs to start with. mean, it's a huge, huge issue for Ontario. has huge impacts. I think folks hopefully can have some level of awareness that, you know, big sector that could be affected by tariffs is, or multiple, I should say, one is the auto sector, right? One is, you know, steel production, aluminum production, all those kinds of things. I imagine the parties are talking about this. I'm kind of looking at their platforms right now. Malumir R. Logan (18:16.627) Yes. Rupesh Patel (18:17.166) But what's your sense as far as the different approaches that people are taking as far as the tariff threats are concerned and how they're hoping to support Ontarians? Malumir R. Logan (18:26.887) So from what I understand, I think the approach that's being taken is a recognition that there is limited scope of authority when it comes to the provinces. So what I think they're looking at is creating, I think there are various supports or funds that are being promised to support various sectors. I think I would also think that there would be tax credits being contemplated as well, which is a common, you and just to again, you bring it back to Rupesh Patel (18:59.278) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (19:08.379) to some of those foundational pieces, these are common tools that governments can use in the face of changing market conditions, right? So, you we've seen this in the past when, you know, when there was, for example, in early days of the pandemic, there were the emergency funds created. And, you know, and by the way, every order of government has some sort of fiscal levers they can pull It really depends on what kind of legislation is in place to allow that. And I think that's also important for people to be aware of. know, like when it comes to municipalities in Ontario. Rupesh Patel (19:44.846) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (19:52.473) they have their financial tools are dictated by the province. And yet they still have some tools at their disposal, depending on which municipality they are. So these are common tools that can be used by various orders of government, and they will often depend on what their scope of authority or responsibility is. Rupesh Patel (20:17.69) I'm noticing across the different platforms, you I see that the progressive conservatives, the NDP, they have some language into there about protecting, you know, affected businesses, workers who, you know, could be hit by these tariffs. The PCs have a certain dollar amount. It's hard to know, like they said, that they laid out more than $14 billion worth of support in early days, I guess, when there was that tariff threat. It's hard to know exactly, says the vast majority would be tax relief for businesses. So it's hard to know if any of that would go to the direct individual. And the NDP has said that they would support directly affected businesses as well. And they say workers in this case. So there might be some distinctions there. I don't really see anything much in the liberal platform as far as direct support for businesses or people. But if that's important for folks, as like, as Malamare was saying, thinking back to COVID and how there is direct relief for businesses, whether it was subsidizing wages or whether it was giving direct relief to individuals through, if people remember, the CERB program. If that's something you're hoping for, then that might be something to look out for in the various party platforms. I'm seeing a little bit of a strong stance from the progressive conservatives on whether they should ban certain American products, for instance. Not seeing as much of that language in some of the other platforms. So think again, it's like if you're feeling like you want this real strong, hostile, maybe a little bit of a hostile or strong approach on that front, know, certain parties are kind of promoting that more than others perhaps. What are you noticing on the different approaches from the parties here? Malumir R. Logan (22:03.647) Well, what I think is actually interesting about what you just said is that... See, I always I love to empower people. I love for people to be really empowered as as individuals. And as much as I want people to be civically engaged, civic engagement is not only about political parties and existing political parties. I mean, yes, pay attention to those, be engaged. And also what are things that we ourselves can do? What are the decisions that we can make in our own lives that actually can have that same kind of impact? So, you know, for example, I know many people who have made a conscious decision to stop purchasing American products. And, you know, my own family and I, canceled some subscriptions we had to American services, and we have switched over some of the some of our staples that we regularly purchase from. We've actually paid attention to where are these from? Wow. OK. Rupesh Patel (22:48.174) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (23:08.469) So we were already buying a good chunk Canadian made products. So let's shift the rest over to Canadian. And so I think that we can also empower ourselves in that way. And I think that's actually important when we're thinking about election times, because as much as we need to pay attention to what the parties are saying, and I think most of them are suggesting some kind of fund to fight the tariffs or support. Rupesh Patel (23:18.542) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (23:38.391) I think even the party that you mentioned earlier has suggested that doesn't look like they're doing much. I think they actually are promising some kind of tariff fund. So I think they are all promising something like that. But also what are the steps that we ourselves as individual citizens can take? Because I think something that I've noticed, it's been really under the microscope given recent world events, is a certain learned helplessness. Rupesh Patel (24:08.206) Hmm. Malumir R. Logan (24:08.254) that the electorate has. that's problematic and it shows up in elections. It shows up in elections in low voter turnout, right? Is this kind of learned helplessness of, it's all over my head, and it'll be fine, the government will handle it, and I don't understand much about it anyway. Well, but they're, you know, where to start with something like that. But that is that is learned helplessness. And it is so common among the electorate because if that weren't common, we would see much higher voter turnout because people would be more engaged because they would be paying more attention and they would have more faith in themselves to be able to parse these differences. So I really would encourage people to think about what steps you personally can take in your life. Rupesh Patel (24:43.811) Yeah. Malumir R. Logan (25:00.937) about the things that matter to you and in doing so it will actually help you to better understand which platforms are aligned with your own values. Rupesh Patel (25:11.694) I really love that. I think in the case of tariffs too, there's only so much governments can do to really try to heed 25 % tariffs on all Canadian products. We as people have to do something about this too, right? Like we have to really make conscious choices on this. so I think thinking about how governments could support folks in buying Canadian and really understanding what they're planning to do in that situation. I did a whole episode on how governments could support people buying Canadian food, for instance, right? Like we import, and I think that's probably on the minds of like groceries, for instance, right? Everyone's going now and looking if it's a product of Canada and such. And that's great. But even just like thinking about how do we change our agricultural system so that it actually allows for, you know, trading within our country, for instance, removing some of those trade barriers to, you know, maybe it's... finding ways to do more vertical farming and more greenhouse growing and actually ontario's is as a leader in greenhouse growing in canada so you know ontario's definitely made some good strides there. but yeah Okay Yep Malumir R. Logan (26:16.255) you You know, I actually wrote a paper. I used to actually be focused on food security. At one point, I actually thought that I would build a career focused on food security. I got very excited about talking about urban agriculture. I actually wrote a paper on municipal fiscal tools that municipalities in Ontario could use to increase urban agriculture and thereby enhance food security in Ontario. And food security is an issue that I've never been able to stop thinking about. It's always been on my mind because, you know... citizens are always encouraged to have three full days of food and water and other necessities on us, you know, in case of, power outages. We all remember the power outage from what was that 2003 with the whole Eastern seaboard had no power. So, you know, we all remember situations like that. And yet what you know, I've always thought I'm a contingency planner. I'm someone who really I'm a big believer in insurance because, you know, my life is a perfect example. Case in point of why it's important to have contingency plans. Rupesh Patel (27:05.61) Mm-hmm. Yep. Malumir R. Logan (27:24.947) in place. But for situations like this where we suddenly find ourselves in an unexpected scenario and are now really forced to look in the mirror and to think about where have these opportunities been all along to enhance our national food security and where can we think, where are there already opportunities such as the you know inter-provincial, I think you mentioned Rupesh Patel (27:32.952) Hmm. Malumir R. Logan (27:54.769) you know, inter-provincial trade, where are there opportunities to remove some of those barriers and to think about that. And this is actually something else that I think is a really great example for people to think about if they're feeling like all of this sounds like a lot. Rupesh Patel (27:55.246) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (28:10.791) is think about what are the mechanisms that allow things to happen or that prevent things from happening in government? what are the, for example, know, were a lot of folks even aware that inter-provincial trade existed as an issue and that there are constraints around it? For example, right? I think a lot of people may not have ever thought about it that's, Rupesh Patel (28:28.142) Hmm. Malumir R. Logan (28:34.951) Part of daily life, we don't, we might not think about these things, but this is exactly a perfect example to when we're approaching policy issues or a part of our daily life. I think this is another thing we're saying. We talk about policy issues. I'm talking about everyday life. This is everyday life. Your food is everyday life. And guess what? It's a policy issue. Your health, that's your everyday life. It's also a policy issue. The roads you drive on, they're your everyday life. They're a policy issue. Literally everything that is a part of your everyday life is a policy issue. Rupesh Patel (28:50.114) Yeah, for sure. Malumir R. Logan (29:04.884) It is, it exists within this framework. But anyway, sorry, I went way on a tangent there, but I think it's so important, right? Because food, it's literally, on our table. We need it every day. Rupesh Patel (29:11.435) No, it's... Rupesh Patel (29:18.222) Yeah, and people don't know that it's actually easier to export some of our food to the United States than it is to export it within our country. Like that's ridiculous, but we don't notice it because it's just, we're so integrated with the United States that we're just, know, whether we're going to a restaurant, like so many of those components are coming from various different states and some of them are coming from different provinces, but it's like this integrated North American meal on our dinner plates every day. and need to be a little bit more conscious of that But there are barriers in place that sometimes prevent these things, you know alcohol is probably like a really common example that people can relate to Brewers in one in one province can't sell their products to another province a lot of this is because of protecting industries, but I think We're getting to this place where we need to protect canadian industries as a whole so Malumir R. Logan (30:10.878) Yeah. Rupesh Patel (30:12.3) I think I'm optimistic that people are hearing that message and that they're maybe putting pressure on our political officials to hopefully champion this and remove some of these barriers as an example. yeah, anything else on the terrace that you think we all have people think about or consider? Malumir R. Logan (30:31.785) I think we've covered the broad strokes, but something you said just at the end there about putting pressure on representatives and as it relates to the tariffs. as it relates to any issue, that is something that also needs to happen. That's a part of political engagement. Send an email, right? Make a phone call. Our representatives are there to represent us and it doesn't actually matter, shouldn't matter which party they're in or whether or not they were a representative that we voted for. The point is that they are there to represent us and we need to communicate with them. Communicate when they've done something good. Pay attention. Rupesh Patel (31:14.542) Mm-hmm. Malumir R. Logan (31:15.201) Kate, when a representative has done something great, there was in my municipality that I live in, I noticed in the council minutes that my local representative had pushed for something in particular, and I was really pleased with that because I thought that's smart, that's gonna lead to a better, higher quality decision in the end. So I just wrote a quick email and I said, thank you for doing that, I really appreciated that for these reasons, and by the way, thanks for what you do because I'm pretty sure working in politics must be a thankless job. Thank you." And they immediately wrote back, like within, think, 10 minutes and said, thank you so much for this email. Like, thank you so much. So thanking them, first of all. So when a representative does something good, know, yay, let's celebrate that. Tell them, communicate, right? Like give people their roses while they're with us. And then also when, you know, if there's something that is concerning you, Rupesh Patel (32:04.418) Yeah, for sure. Malumir R. Logan (32:13.977) share it with your local representative. you know, I was chatting with a friend the other day who has a family member who works in the auto sector. They are incredibly worried right now that they're going to lose their job. And and that's completely, you know, a valid concern. And they would be encouraged to write to your local representative, your provincial representative, once we once we have one again, and write to your federal representatives, write to these folks, call them and just communicate that this is something I'm concerned about. This is something I'm concerned about. You don't always need to be writing with a solution of what you want. If you have ideas, great, share them, but communicate. Communicate with your representatives. Rupesh Patel (32:58.156) Yeah, I think, know, having, you know, worked in the public service, the provincial level in particular, you know, you get visibility into some of the things that people respond to or people are inquiring about, know, ministers do respond to these things, right? And if there's enough of these kinds of letters or, or if these issues are commonly coming to their, their, their table, they're, they're thinking about these things. So it's not that they're just working in a vacuum and you know, just Malumir R. Logan (33:14.079) they Rupesh Patel (33:25.774) putting their blinders on and doing as they're doing as working on this one lane track. They are people and they are also sensitive to the issues of the day. And so if enough of that gets raised to them, they do get engaged. So the one thing maybe just to close off on the tariff front, and maybe we'll call it this sort of part one here for me is that I think it's going to be really easy if the pressure from Canadians doesn't remain sustained, that we need to be diversifying our trade, we need to be thinking about how we're not as reliant, we need to be less reliant in the United States. If we somehow take the foot off the gas on buying Canadian, all these kinds of things, it's going to be really easy to fall back into this, let's stay very integrated with the United States. And it's not to say that we should be completely diversifying away from the United States. I think that relationship is going to sustain itself beyond you know, the next four years. know, well, I think, I think there's, there's, there's a lot of practice. Yeah. Malumir R. Logan (34:24.145) Maybe. Does it need to? Just a challenge. I'm just going to push back a little bit there on the assumptions. Do we need to? Rupesh Patel (34:32.046) Yeah, no, fair. Do we need to is a good question. mean, it's I guess it's just we're so much of our exports, so much of our integrations are we could totally make a shift. It's just I guess my point here is that we are going to need to sustain this pressure on folks because it's going to be really easy for political leaders to be like, let's do the easiest thing possible. Right. Yes. And also. Malumir R. Logan (34:51.123) Yes. Malumir R. Logan (34:55.75) Let's go back to normal even if things are not normal. Yeah. Rupesh Patel (34:58.592) Also for businesses, economically it's easier to just trade with the United States than to find other markets. So there needs to be some really big system shifts and I think that only happens if we sustain this pressure. maybe that's my personal closing point on the the tariff side. So no, it's good. Malumir R. Logan (35:19.199) I'm sorry for interrupting you. I think it reminds me of a conversation I say overheard on social media the other day where someone was, they were talking about family and they were talking about how they have firm boundaries with a particular family member because the person is belligerent, verbally abusive, and so forth. And someone made a comment, they said, but you you know, but they're family, like you can't choose your family. And here's the thing, it doesn't matter if someone is family, it doesn't matter how integrated you are in someone's life. Again, coming back to the idea of learned helplessness, it really does come down to what is appropriate? What is appropriate? Is it appropriate to have one's sovereignty threatened? really threatened? Is it appropriate to lean into that? Is it appropriate to entertain that? Right? Would we entertain that? Let's say, you would we entertain that from a romantic partner? That would be a huge problem. That would be that would be abusive. Would we tolerate that? And how much are we willing to tolerate? And so I think that, you know, I would encourage people to think about that metaphor a bit, because a lot of people, you know, it's easy. And even if we leave out the the specific Rupesh Patel (36:15.054) Mm-hmm. Rupesh Patel (36:27.758) Totally. Yep. Yep. Malumir R. Logan (36:44.289) fix for a minute, right? Because yes, it's easy. You know, we've been integrated with the US in so many ways. So it's easy for businesses to stick with that. I think what is applicable across issues here is that it's easy to go back to what we're used to. whatever that is, it's easy to go back to what we're used to, it's harder to change, it's harder to do something new and unfamiliar, and yet this is exactly the time that we need to do that. And so we need to exercise curiosity and an open mind and a little bit of courage and really think through who we allow to treat us like what. Rupesh Patel (37:01.698) Yep. Yep. Malumir R. Logan (37:27.487) So those are my thoughts on that. I am a firm believer again in people being empowered and making sure that, you know, we each make sure that we are respected, that we're respected and supported and safe. as individuals and that safety is not always in sticking with the same. The same old same old will not work here. Now is the time to examine how we can find a new version of stability and well-being in the path forward. Rupesh Patel (38:03.352) So well said. Maybe that's a good way to wrap up this part here. I'm going to have you back on another part. Stick around, folks. Hopefully, this was helpful in terms of just how you might think about this election, how you might think about voting, how you might think about getting engaged. We dove into a little bit of the tariffs here. We'll dive into some other areas in the next couple of parts. But stick around. So hopefully, you enjoyed this episode. And we'll see you in the next one. Cheers.